HomeMy WebLinkAbout2019-09-10 CC & HPC Special Joint MIN tat, ii(Water 216 4th Street N, Stillwater, MN 55082
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CITY COUNCIL&HERITAGE PRESERVATION COMMISSION
SPECIAL JOINT MEETING MINUTES
September 10, 2019
REGULAR MEETING 7:00 P.M.
Mayor Kozlowski called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m.
Present: Councilmembers Collins, Junker,Weidner, Polehna and Mayor Kozlowski,
HPC Members: Chairman Mino, Commissioners Finwall, Larson, Walls, Steinwall, Thueson
Absent: None
Staff present: City Planner Wittman, City Attorney Land
INTRODUCTIONS
City Planner Wittman asked those present to introduce themselves and describe what
preservation in Stillwater means to them.
MEETING PURPOSE
City Planner Wittman stated the meeting is for discussion purposes. No action will be taken.
HISTORY OF STILLWATER HPC
City Planner Wittman stated the HPC started in 1973, out of the Washington County
Historical Society and Rivertown Restoration,a nonprofit.The first structures to be listed in
Stillwater were the Point Douglas Bridge (old Stonebridge) and Nelson School. The HPC
created the Downtown Design Manual in the late 1980s. Other design elements began to be
incorporated into the HPC's purview, such as the West Stillwater Business Park Plan in
1989. In addition to preservation, new design review became a part of the HPC's
responsibilities. In the mid-1990s the HPC began reviewing demolition applications. Design
Guidelines were updated in the 2000s and the Neighborhood Conservation District was
created, with guidelines for the review of new homes in this district. The Heirloom Homes
and Landmarks program was also initiated. In the 2010s, amendments were made to the
ordinances. In the recently updated Comprehensive Plan chapter,the number one thing that
was recommended was to update the ordinance. Five demolition requests were considered
this year, an increase over the previous few years.
HPC RESPONSIBILITIES
City Planner Wittman stated that three sections of City code contain HPC responsibilities.
The purpose of the HPC has not changed since the original enabling ordinance. The goal is
to preserve historic resources and to do public education. Staff recognizes the need to clean
up the code, eliminate inconsistencies, and assign certain responsibilities.
City Council & Heritage Preservation Commission Special Joint Meeting September 10, 2019
DESIGNATION CRITERIA AND NOMINATIONS
City Planner Wittman reviewed the four national designation criteria for structures that are
50 years old or older. Stillwater's criteria incorporates a number of the national standards
into the City code. She has investigated what other communities do and found that leaning
on the national standards may pigeonhole communities because some of the things that a
community values may not fit the national model.
Councilmember Junker stated that is one of the issues. Lately it seems like every designation
study being done finds that the structure does not meet any of the criteria for whatever
reason. He feels that is pigeonholing the City into a situation where staff and Council feel
there is something there and yet the study is showing nothing.
Councilmember Weidner remarked that is where the balance comes in between property
rights and community rights. Just because it is old does not mean it is significant.
Commissioner Larson commented that if we want to protect something then we have to find
historic guidelines to help us do that. There are conservation districts that are historic-
based and conservation districts that are planning-based. Rather than a very strict set of
rules, if a neighborhood or a block wants to create a conversation district and say"we want
to keep this the same," can that be done?What if it is not historic,what if it is relatively new
but people want to keep it the way it is. Is it only through historic designation that we can
preserve? Can we do an overlay district with zoning tools that says we are going to keep
these characteristics in this area? Then we step outside of the discussion of whether
something is historic or not.
Councilmember Weidner agreed. He commented that what we have does not protect
historic buildings, it protects old buildings. If we change that distinction, then people
purchasing property would know they cannot do certain things, it would be"buyer beware"
-the limitations would be on the books so they would know when they purchase a property
there are things they could not do.
Mayor Kozlowski mentioned that Breckenridge, Colorado, for example, has a time period
defining the structures they wish to preserve.
Commissioner Larson stated, for example, in the case of a very run down home that is
vernacular,not historically significant,the only tool we have to keep it from being torn down
is to go through the procedure of trying to designate it as historically significant. It does not
seem like the right tool. If there is a whole intact block of vernacular houses, there is value
in keeping them. If the vernacular house were in Croixwood, for example, it would be
different.There are certain things we can use historic tools for. Mr. Larson added that there
are other things we want to keep, and we need something else to work with.
Councilmember Weidner emphasized that we need to give people who buy properties fair
warning that their house is being controlled to some degree by the group that sits around
this table,according to what we think is valuable or old. Mr.Weidner asked if we are talking
about a certain era being of value, and how does this group define what is important to
Stillwater; and Commissioner Larson responded that it can be a lot of things. For example,
in a downtown district that also has a mix of residential homes, it may be desirable to
preserve that mix of uses.
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City Council & Heritage Preservation Commission Special Joint Meeting September 10, 2019
Councilmember Junker added, for example the Broadway Street house that was discussed
for six months - every house in that row was built in the 1880s and represented the
lumbering era of Stillwater. He asked if it is a question of it being significant because it is
old,or because the neighborhood all ties in together. Mr.Junker added that we struggle with
character versus old, versus neighborhood, versus significance. Presently we do not have
the teeth to stop demolition of structures like this.
Commissioner Walls remarked that where we got caught is we had no historical significance
there, no teeth.
Councilmember Weidner commented that the broad description of things built during a
certain era would probably be easier to apply to structures we want to save.
Commissioner Steinwall added, or just say it was built before 1946, period.
Commissioner Larson responded that would be too broad.
Chairwoman Mino acknowledged that sometimes it is clearly a safety issue dictating that a
structure should be torn down.
City Planner Wittman added that there have been some demolition applications the Council
has not seen. The ones the Council sees are the ones we think could be significant to the
development and characteristics of the City.
Councilmember Weidner asked if that statement can be challenged. How does a home buyer
know that their house adds to the development characteristics of the City?We need to give
fair warning and say if it falls into a certain time period, it is of value to the City.
Mayor Kozlowski asked how zoning assists in preservation; and Commissioner Larson
replied that he feels zoning is the direction we should look at. For example, an area along
Broadway could be a mini district or overlay - then everyone who wanted to buy there
would know the house is in that district. Retaining affordable housing could be one of the
goals. Certain areas could be chosen to apply some sort of zoning rules if we get the
neighborhood to agree.
Commissioner Finwall remarked that you cannot get to the demolition piece in a zoning
code.You can have design standards governing what could be altered,but demolition would
have to be in a separate code.
Mayor Kozlowski read from the Breckenridge, Colorado zoning code.
Councilmember Weidner responded that in Breckenridge, the buildings that are standing
and are not being used look awful.All we are doing is inflating the value of homes by being
very limited in allowing them to be torn down. If negligent homeowners do not repair their
properties,they should not benefit from the inflated value to someone who has the funds to
renovate.
Mayor Kozlowski reminded that variances cannot be for economic reasons. The same
should apply to demolitions.
City Attorney Land stated that we have discussed starting an economic development
authority,which would give the City the ability to provide economic incentives for property
owners, giving them a lot more options. The Economic Development Authority could have
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City Council & Heritage Preservation Commission Special Joint Meeting September 10, 2019
the powers of an Housing& Redevelopment Authority. It would have to be funded through
taxes or seed money.
Councilmember Weidner asked if it could it be done through Convention & Visitor Bureau
funds or tourism dollars. He added that people visit Stillwater because of the historic
appeal. There needs to be a broader funding tool than taxation for everyone.
Mayor Kozlowski asked if is there a TIF-like funding tool; and City Attorney Land replied
that you could establish TIF districts. An EDA or HRA is one way to do that. A very strict
analysis would have to be done to ensure an area qualifies as a TIF district.
City Planner Wittman added that we could keep the designation criteria as they are but
perhaps they should be added to, or tweaked, maybe removing the word significant. Maybe
the nomination itself is the issue. The standards may not be the problem.
Chairwoman Mino noted that the challenge with the studies is that national criteria were
used. If we had set local criteria, the structures may have been saved.
Commissioner Larson remarked that somehow we need to locally draw a line.We need lots
of little sub-areas - areas that are pretty intact, where we may be able to get neighborhood
buy-in.
Councilmember Weidner stated it would be great to just add "old" and add an era and
require that the consultants use our criteria.
City Planner Wittman noted that is the first litmus test, is it an historic resource? We need
to determine whether we need an outside consultant.
City Attorney Land stated she likes the idea of zoning districts because it is clear and buyers
would know what they are getting themselves into. She is not sure yet where to put the
demolition process.You need to have criteria for when demolition can happen, for instance
if it is falling apart, it cannot be moved, etc. There could be guidelines and standards in the
zoning ordinance - then you would not have to be involved in designating it historically
significant.Trying to designate an entire ward would be difficult.There is danger in drawing
the district too large. Smaller areas probably could get a percentage of property owners to
agree, 80, 90 or 100% to consent.You could do a zoning overlay that is specific to homes of
a certain era.
Mayor Kozlowski asked where did 1946 come from; and City Planner Wittman replied that
1946 has to do with the end of Stillwater town planning and development.Stillwater has ten
historically significant periods.
Mayor Kozlowski asked do we want to talk about accessory buildings as part of this
conversation; and Ms. Wittman replied nationally if it is 50 years old or older, it is eligible
to be listed if it fits the criteria.
Commissioner Finwall stated that the downtown district and neighborhood conservation
district could be converted to an overlay district- now they are a conservation district, but
not a zoning district. If they were zoning districts, it would be more difficult to challenge
some of the guidelines because they would be rules.
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City Council & Heritage Preservation Commission Special Joint Meeting September 10, 2019
City Attorney Land agreed. A constant complaint is that we have these guidelines, but we
can not make anyone adhere to them because it is just policy. So put it in your code so it is a
rule.
City Planner Wittman asked City Attorney Land if it is allowed to simply deny demolition if
a structure is not listed; and City Attorney Land replied that if you set out your criteria in
your ordinance that says in this zoning district, you cannot demolish unless you meet the
following criteria, and let staff determine whether they meet the criteria.There is an appeal
right for due process. We can figure out who that goes to - but as long as you apply your
criteria,give them due process,the appeal body can apply the same criteria to either uphold
it or overturn it. Then they have district court to go to if they choose to take it that far, if
they do not like the decision.
Commissioner Steinwall stated that maybe it would make sense to de-couple demolition
from the HPC and rather say, if a structure was built before 1946, go with the Breckenridge
approach. Not designating historic districts,but rather saying,this is the criteria that applies
to the whole City.
Commissioner Larson asked if that would be too broad. It would literally mean if a structure
was built before 1946, it could never be torn down.
Chairwoman Mino commented that the conservation district talks about promoting and
sustaining a diverse and affordable range of homes. That is already in place. That was our
approach in some of the cases we were looking at. It is not really a historic preservation
approach. If some of those guidelines can be codified it would really help maintain the
traditional nature and affordability of the City's housing.
Councilmember Weidner stated that he likes the objective nature of establishing a certain
date that would inform buyers,you would not be able to tear something down if it was built
before a certain date. He asked where does the City come in with enforcement of
maintenance of homes in the overlay district; and what role can we take.
Mayor Kozlowski suggested that we could tag something that appears to be demolition by
neglect; and City Attorney Land replied that is already in statute. It is the responsibility of
the City to be watching hazardous buildings.
City Planner Wittman added that if staff were charged with monitoring demolition by
neglect, then we would need more resources, specifically inspectors.
City Attorney Land stated that she is not sure that it has to be an overlay district. Put the
rules in place, they are not guidelines, they are design standards, performance standards -
maybe maintenance is one of those rules. Then if someone wants to demolish, they have to
meet the criteria- hazardous, falling down, something.What if it is not in that district,if it is
an old house somewhere else. Ms. Land questioned do we still want to apply those specific
rules outside of that district? Those people may not know they bought a house that had
special rules with it. If you are in the district, then you know.
City Planner Wittman noted,if it is outside of the district,the HPC should be looking at those
true heritage preservation sites and whether they should be listed, like Boutwell House for
example. Ms.Wittman has enough direction right now in terms of large scale neighborhood
preservation, community character preservation as a tool that these two bodies would like
to explore.
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City Council & Heritage Preservation Commission Special Joint Meeting September 10, 2019
City Attorney Land remarked that she still questions what to do with these old houses
outside the district. She pointed out that state law has the 60-day rule when dealing with
people's property. It has been broadened by case law to go outside of just a zoning
regulation.Anything dealing with a land use application permit is subject to the 60 day rule.
We have to be very mindful of that.
Councilmember Weidner commented that he wants people to have fair warning, and added
what if we say any house in the City that was built before a certain time is subject to the
rules. We have made it available to them, it is clear, concise. If it is necessary to get
designation on specific houses around the community that the City would like to preserve,
he would like to have discussion at least before they are torn down.
Commissioner Steinwall noted there are other reasons to preserve housing- it is affordable,
green, etc.
City Planner Wittman moved to the topic of designation; and indicated that Stillwater does
not designate sites. However, there may be some circumstances where the City would want
to designate something. She posed the question, who can make the nomination? Right now
the HPC can request that the City Council order a designation study, but it does not say that
Council, staff, or property owner can make the nomination.Who should be allowed to make
a nomination?Are we going to require property owner approval?
Commissioner Larson stated he feels it should be kept open as far as nomination. There is
no harm in any groups being able to nominate a particular structure.
Councilmember Weidner countered that he is not sure if it would be good for a neighbor to
say they wish to designate their neighbor's home because it adds value to their house. He
has a hard time with other people regulating someone else's property - someone arguing
they have an equitable interest because they walk past it.
City Planner Wittman turned to the subject of nomination preparation and pointed out that
the City has 6-8 qualified consultants. Again, she posed the question, do we need to have a
pre-approved qualified consultant? Looking at other communities in the State, many allow
staff to do designation studies. The other question that has been brought up recently is
whether or not the City would ever want their own subject matter expert, a historian on a
retainer for some cases from time to time.Who should be the reviewing parties? Right now
we do not send it for review to the Washington County Historical Society.The State Historic
Preservation Office (SHPO) has to review our nominations and they can take up to 60 days.
Our Council is the only body that can authorize a designation study.
Councilmember Weidner noted that it comes down to spending the money. If we are
conducting the reviews internally, no longer sending them out for $5-10,000 each, he does
not care whether staff or someone more versed in the area does it.
City Attorney Land stated that regarding demolition,we should determine either they meet
the criteria to demolish, or they do not, to eliminate having to go through this "we're going
to have to designate it as an historic resource in order to save the house."
DEMOLITION REVIEW
City Planner Wittman stated that it sounds like demolition review would go away.Currently,
demolition review allows for us to determine the historical significance. Some communities
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City Council & Heritage Preservation Commission Special Joint Meeting September 10, 2019
use interim protection - if a structure is in the process of being nominated, the property
owner cannot do certain things in the interim.
City Attorney Land added that the City could have an interim protection ordinance on the
zoning districts you are talking about, which would allow nothing that would alter the
exterior of a site.
DESIGN PERMITTING
City Planner Wittman noted there have not been challenges with design permitting, but
murmuring about it taking time. This is the HPC's biggest interaction with the public. The
HPC reviews site alteration permits, sign permits in the downtown design review district
and multi-tenant signs in the west business park district.
City Attorney Land suggested that maybe it should be the Planning Commission that reviews
signs in the west business park district. Maybe we should move this off the HPC's plate.
Commissioner Larson commented that he thinks it could work either way, the Planning
Commission or the HPC.
City Planner Wittman added that the Comprehensive Plan states the City should consider
reassignment of the west Stillwater business park district to staff for zoning decisions.
Councilmember Weidner stated that he feels the quality of the work done by the HPC, with
regard to design, is more consistent than you would get on the Planning Commission. He
added that it is more thoughtful given the makeup of the HPC compared to the Planning
Commission.
Commissioner Larson stated the downtown has sign criteria and the business park has a
sentence. Maybe there should be more criteria for signs in the west business park district.
City Planner Wittman acknowledged that the sign code is being amended right now. Staff
administers the zoning of signs, but it is the design of signs that is reviewed by the HPC. It is
a waste of resources to do staff reports for signs as it takes a lot of time to do sign permits.
The west business park has no guidelines, it is virtually up to the HPC's whim. So having
better codified standards would be good. Her recommendation is that signs not go before
the HPC, and that there be standards codified so staff could review the sign plan at the time
of the building permit.
Commissioner Finwall noted that planning commissions usually look at the big picture, the
zoning. It might be difficult to drill down to these small details. She agreed with reassigning
sign review to staff.
NEXT STEPS
City Planner Wittman reported staff is finalizing a request for proposals to hire a consultant
with State and Federal money to update this ordinance. The contract would probably run
from November to June. It will be a two part process incorporating some help from citizens,
and talking to a few property owners who have gone through the process recently to ask
what is working and what is not. The consultant will take the lead on HPC enabling
ordinance clean-up. There will be future meetings. She asked if the Council would be
favorable to an interim moratorium; and the Council consensus was affirmative.
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City Council &Heritage Preservation Commission Special joint Meeting September 10, 2019
ADJOURNMENT
There was no motion for adjournment. The meeting ended at 9:07 p.m.
Ted Kozlowski, Mayor
ATTEST:
Abbi Jo Wittman, City Planner
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