HomeMy WebLinkAbout1970-11-30 CPC MIN MINUTES OF PLANNING AND ZONING COI djISSTON
Special Meeting
November 30, 1970
7 :30 P. M.
Present : Duane Arndt, Chairman
John Condon
Donald Carlson
Harold Hohlt
Jack Shelton
The meeting was called to order by Chairman Arndt,
° -4't : I t 1.2-z" L: ""' 7"aalce any final CO'_1C1uS1011S
uon , zz7; ° was ":'.t �,nc' ��'��y r,r: i �C'11 meeting and asked for Corsi-dents
C7 J Llhe mid " r" ^«}'v" Ar
they had had complaints, etc., and
i�•Jo members of the Council said
ay kayo.. 'aad � rL �"'"w� � '
o mcmoo_ s .. ..c. tiJe than � � soy n .telt' thought we needed an ordinance;
r' � tt no-ad one.
In any case, I -ot the distinct
Ira ression teat they want somme ty,,e of fe?1Cing ordinance. iVOvr, i have
done a little bit of research trying to find out what other cities have
done; the twin cities are not necessarily nodels ::e will follo,:<. i
will read. a section of t'r_a Iiankato ordinance wtaich deals : ith accessory
buildin -;s :
"Section "
5, no 3 - "Talks, slaps an urourld slopes, ret->.ining
walls, hed es and natural rowth, fences, paved terraces and
paved areas, structures used orn,-,_,,.,entally or for garde_,in�,
or for private recreation purposes od structures or OSS wtial
services, when accessory to an custo:aarily incidoz -.al to '
principal use, are perraitted in ya-c-'s and courts, provided hat
a side yard. Strip 1-1/2 feat in wi �.th adjoining t " s '.re d %e of
ayr. s v .'.L ll +OC ' t c tl � � E,. tr c
S l_ uCtui e O� �a " (exc
1-aG ) t=' a iS M;-i iia.' u- "o fret above the ground level.
�y „
mall be -more than 7 feet in
w t in y yarid, orc, tan 5 feet in h�i Ohl =n any
r :c o, �.,.E wa� d, °moo rl,M.. a 'ut'_aEr than no such fence or
I'Z: Ya-ac _...y wa �d of 7,7i
.-it�in 20 feet of the corner
ore.." S""Oh 1. t, 5,-la t .L®s ar � 1.6. � ,.,,a^r.fes, � tionn .� v ��
m °t irate sec -,hell b hi=,her
u' an 3 feet above t1=e levol of the curb directly opposi te.1'�
ordinance referrinm to -fences .
.W:oC to on in the 'Iinona ordinance and
,'l h �Ed 'Jing ordinance. 'noka has so-me,
ra. _G S, - uGeneral ulations subGivision 1 a
r .
ri wall, fence or hedge may occupy part of the required front
yard alorl the front lot line but no wall or fence or hedge
mo--o than three (3) feet hiuh, as measured above the nearest
St=%Et curb, shall be constructed ?,Ti thout a Conditional Use
arLli t. rr
11r'. Hohlt: �' 2ee feet high doe sr_t t seem very hi,-,h to rue.
Xr. Arndt: "ou could get a special use -p ' t. 1t1Zr e is an additional
-2-
-port ion
2--portion i-faich states
-1 the door of any r�ui ldin; or ;mr)rovcment, except a
fence, opens toward an alley, it shall not be erected or
established closer than a dist�_nce of fifteen (17) feet
from the property line. "
" ences, located in front yards alon- sides
m lot line as
CD
def ined herein, shall not exceed a of four (1�)
feet and they shall not create a site hazard to traffic
Safoty. it
I have looked c,t the P--o i.dloy ordinance, Trhich is a 1969 ordinance,
and they have no restrictions on fencing. `,That 1 want is your general
reaction to a fencing ordinance.
lsoh1t : For the time beim; ire could probably issue special use
permits for fences. . .
i'r. Condon: But every time someone wants to put up a fence they would
have to core to us.
I r. Carlson: 1 think we need a fencing ordinance - I an concerned
about the hei-ht. 1 think use of the curb line is crood only on corner
lots. ID
Tom. ,rndt: 1 am concerned about placin- additional restrictions on
persons who buy a lot and T•Tant to put un a fence four feet high, and
runs alon his lot line adjoinin- another property owner. . .
I'Ir. Carlson: I don't see any problem with link fence.
Kr. Arndt : 'hat do you thin'.: about res ictin,� pla nting? Should
they be able to put in pl<_nss-that -,,Till reS`-rict %i'le Vier?
ls. Condon: I think another law would do more harm than -ood. If
they think there is G_ law, their ane going to be ap )ealin� to somebody
all the time. V
Yr. Hohlt: T-That about people who have a big hednre?
Xr. Condon: According to this you would have to et a building permit
to plant a hedse.
l"lr. Arndt : There are lots of hed,os in this town that abut sideti�Talks. . .
I`ir. l-lohlt: Some of them don't lock too food.
I"I'r. Ca 1son. A man has a rWF :r°„' t to privacy; we don' t =know w-na , fencing
is - in California, that ' s ;fL1aere fencing- is really used.
Hij-. Arndt : There is a Statute that declares a spite fence a nuisance
and t"3y can be re-o_oved.
r. Condon: Very feTr other co=iunities have fencin ordinances a-111d I
really c,or_ 't ir�k <<:e need one.
Nr. Carlson: -: Zat promntod this ? Did you c7et an answer from the Council?
1`'�p -rndt: Apparently i''1'^. iohlerS and 'r. %c Lc.a rS had r 2Cei Ved Some
CO:i(1:i1 1n VS. 1 L121i: \' l:e S:i.ou1d -Lia 1,e a recorr_n,Ciid^it on of So:'11e Lyoe, but
I cert_' :i_nly don' t thinly we havenCu`.=a`- 1n'^:'.Ci:iation at this time to make
a reco _ .yncaticn. 1 inclined to prefer sor ethiiz; life a .; a1;imum
hel"'l''� mm:°r ;tri CLi on; �b ' e snd be-, t11at 1 all no- inclined to -o farther
at tai., oint. ;e ala; ,ant to nut certain 'rinds of fences under special
use -:,ermit.
i•r. Condon: `This ordinance makes it more difficult to build a fence
than to build an house.
-3-
Hr. arncit: This type Of O( n � � '
gyp. ordinance COi,1.11tS US �O a ll_e style. _eople
raovin'� into Stillwater - i they want ?privacy they may not be able to
a It 's fine to tall: a I don't know if that 's
h�._v., it. bout opar� to��, out
what everybody wanst any rr_ore.
1,1r. Brerrler= i:Te already have a restriction on corns lots.
Hr. Hlohlt : � aat is the corner lot restriction n0?.T for rPencinr-�?
H'r. Carlson: Three feet.
!.,Ir. Hohlt . --,:rhat is the setback?
Hr. Shelton: You use the property line; you have to be back forty feet.
Nr. nrndt: In any case I would like to rive this __ore thought.
Dir. Hohlt: In all these ordinances you will find the air space has to
be so much and T don't understand :ih-y you have to have this air space .
Xr. Arndt : Soraethin else I dont und,_ St�_nd - what if so,.. eone t�r_ d
:nte
to build a brick z•;all? You would have no air space at all.
Mr. Hohlt : You could do it.
!'ir. _?.-�n:;:t T'�O?•T, �Tes, blit order ;rrovisiG_'1S Of this Ordin�lnCe ]_i. Z�TOUld
be i lli7rossible. I Can See :`!l acini; SOa'l.e rfl ._;,i-1tiu'1 :Le T'_rl� 1'2Stri Cti0T15
without S-pecial use rerrlit, and -Derr.ittin.- someone t �U` a Chan link
fence 'i 'r_t on ;he lot 'Line. ':hy stzould a "orooert�r owner 'lave to
sacrifice one or two feet when it isn't O7 n` t0 d0 any larfl?
oh t: Don't you thin' if you want to put a fence in your back
yard you can put - it on your lot line?
1, .r. Shelton: Yes.
11r. ..rndt : especially because ;vTc don' t have alleys in this to.-,m.
� t
Cr h nel,.t meeti n`, -_r rich i-;i=�1 be the 21st of i�ece_iber, T �TCuld
lire each of you t0 jot dOT,':'n s0=fle f icures in terms of fence he i -,-.,Its,
__,O,,T close t0 lot 'Lines you want t0 go, etc.
1'ir. Hohlt: Let ' s say there is a five foot fence - anything Over that
could be on a special use permit.
°lr. Condon: S?.x feet is rlo:�e likely for privacy, isn't it?
rT,
r. ',rnato I don' t Say th-=.t you s louldn't have a nax:-aura, out if there
are circvn_stances that recuire a hi her _"ence and it isn't objectionable,
that s' ould be allowed. . .
iu�. Hohit : tinder special use permit?
Yes .
=r. T oalt : -',!hat would be the best?
ilr. Condon: i think the best la -T is no law at all.
Mr.. Carlson: i trlil^!_L if you r,lal--e a chai=r-e as for as C orris r he ig at is
concern Od. . I don 't thin'c 1•do have tO S�Dei1 out ventilation. 1 don'L..
persona l Ly lilie to see res triCtiOns on '10?•.T close 'you Can build t0 a
line. '1 le f-.ct that jac? is being- called all the time by people looking
for ,dui Ge lines and rules. . .
Pyr. =lohlt: Usually the nei,!7hboi calls about it.
1"ii". Shelton : e tell Mem to be able to ;iaintain it., ieOple are really
surprised that -,e don' t have an ordinance.
Arndt : Be ore re male a rrcccmmcnr'ation we Lrill take a loot, around
and see if we can find some more ordin<_nces, talk to some people, etc.
Mr. Hohlt : `!,7as anythin7 said about the streets?
1��r. Arndt: Jack was given instructions to try and find so-mething out
about St. Croix Avenue.
1°ir. Hohlt: I was thin.kinc of Hooley t.s.
LD
i,ir. Arndt: 1 re:corted on it and gave the Council our recommen'_ �
- -� ,tion.
Mr. Hohlt: Did you see how far you have to go north before you can
come U-11. there? It ' s aui'te a distance in there; I don 't see any reason
t1'rly that street should be v:cited.
L.Lr. Arndt: It ' s still set for hearing , on the 22nd of December.
1-ohlt : Are they just going to leave it that way with those bo-rds
around it?
1-1r. zrndt : the City gave them -perr-li scion to leave it there until after
the hoarino. Unless there is some reason Jou -,rant to discuss this
'urtaer. . .we have made a recommendation.
1',Lr. Hohlt: I still think we did right in not rm-
ecomending the vacation
Of the street.
Mr. Condon: I -r: not so Sl]?'c^, I 'm not sure I -•;ant to vacate the street
and vet 1 see no objection to that thing that juts out over the sidewalk
there, or a continuation of that. I guess !"am, not in favor of it oino
out into the street.
tis. Hohlt : . 1-1hy can't the next door neighbor have the s2-me thin- then?
'P%Ir. Condon: I would -o for seven foe-'5.
1`L-. Hohlt: Did you near ;;he clues t=ons he Pr. Arndt) asked hir:1 ( -ir.
_meson) ? It ;a.s just for conv: nience - it would not stop their
business. And that is not a dedicated -Dark. The ii--,an ?rhe o:ms the post
office o;.ms that park - it ' s part of his leg"_1 description.
e 1i C' ago 1 sent 70i a Copy OI an
dd, h. ° r n .�. v,J�.P.r ',av Mr` '� ^..+7��� la tined Uri L TD �Ta1opma� O
��" � � � r ., .. �,��n�. Our
"fir zoot anytfhn !- of t "r S type. Do any
t is A la,., ed unit dev„lopmen t,
1 F fix 11�"cter -eyvOuld o
.";o O?
3 i'r an urban
an
r 7 ti
°~" w� "r �� r .'f v d �.ti „y OAC` could be used in existing portions
vc1op:cnont is to talc a 1)iece of
property and < ac you do is ner-mi c one ��erson, one coriDoration9 or one
i -
aevolnoor to in and -,plan the development of that land area as a unit -
let hirm corme
with so--me ides of land use ' ithout restrict on of the
zoning ordinance. `°T�iat you permit the developer to do is come b----Poreyour planning corynission and -present a d.evelo_�iiient concept - show you
T,-There le 'lans to place buildings, dt•fellin; units, the density, etc., and
Oren Jou irmposa tirl.,atevor you thinii is necessary.
r
-J®
Hr. Condon: Does he oti:rn all of this _land?
'�r. =Arndt : flat would be the idoa - .-ost or din,noes s< y, 'the owner t
.
.Kr. '.,Clatl we a_ U01n- %O CLO a.00Ut� that in the county it he puts
in a. hip�n rise or anyt lin- li pre that, S L;_y he has S a tTTenty family unit t,
he i S still Z o i ng to be reouired t0 have twenty tiG1eS 10, 000 square feet
1n this area.
"rnd_t : i 1-nderSt;.�_1d - you C, '-hi y a - 1
' �n do � s if ,you ��risthe id•:,a i s �o
avoid severe restrictions -Thick you find in standard zoning ordinances
and hopefully he Trill corse up with bett'cr space utiliza.ti on. Obviously
r -
i� y0U are tal'_cin about- Olde:' COUTMunitieS, it could be the only Til ay
to save blighted areas .
i r. HolZlt : Do we want our whole communi �y built up as another high
y density area?
Le you assuming that a planned unit development ultimately
means hi_;her density?
I°fir.. Ho'nl t: Yes.
I11r. Arndt : I would disagree with you, Iiar old.
idr. Hohlt : I am thin"tin` of the over all thing. . .
i'°Ir. rndt : 'Tse theo-r'y is, rather than havi n.�- ro.rs of houses, you
concentrate the housin,_; and leave the res Oi the 8^.aC2 Open - 1t 1'edUCBS
costs and produces .-ore useable o:oen s,pace for rccreati.on, etc.
1,1p . lohit : it would be hu_d to have something in the to,ai.
n
1''r. Carlson: 1`o-vi do you fi;urs; tats can be wor_'ied in the r"` ty Of
Stzllt°Tter �
T�^ had had tail type Of ot'dincnce before we would Clave
this type of development already.
Hr. Hohl t : 12his would douses Or anyt.11n g?
!,L-. Arnd.t: You can n_-ix housing of all 17inds together - this prevents
nei>hborhood deterioration - that i5 the theory. '`_150, you will
hopefully avoid an etre;-ely heavy _scc-cmulation of school population.
ir. Hohlt: You are still going to have only so many square feet of
land per f a;:ii ly. . .
Hr. Condon: It only -_provides for a rew area under sir_gle o�:-nership?
Ir. trndt : In t'_Z1.S ordinance yes .
i'ir. Condon: :,ren this spots old, as all plans do, what are you going
to � d_o? _ill Of these t-gin s a_-e s__�ec Pied - plans look good and are put
do,,,n in infleXible language that do not serve.
1'`ir. i:rndt : I think the i(3e t is to E t a -T—y frof,l V:"ry tac n4 cf?l rules.
Person coni - in for a dcvolozDnont in;OUId ;i:ti t10iZ f lYi
Or a -�1� neCl 'atilt
zone - flo would have a t1Me a ;reerient.
1`'r. Hohlt . I would say t i � ;� `o Of them a:'e done tiZ fed. :rai ;Over.=^ nt
mOnoy - _' \��.='OI SS Of t•rC1 ;_t iJe say, t'C18y TTi 11 Cleve o adhere t0 I edel al
government rules .
T'or. .gnat: is -Droble,1.
Condon: 7-Te .I 11 't tZC O her i'di10 a3'e.1f t fVdel'c to
I'"Ir. =10h1t : DO you thin: :,here i s a. noed fo adop'�ing SOflet_ing like this?
r. Arndt : Yes; seve='al ii.@=mberS Of the Coo-incil have indi ca ted that
they -.Tould li'_2e to have us take u-o this matter. I personally think
we should tame up the matter of ad,--,-- :.ink. this.
hr. Hohlt: Suppose zre did adopt solcmethir- lime this - Steindorff, for
instance, wo -1d have to ch .ns;e his zrhole tray of int 0
Hr. Arndt : ATO - you can continue to develop under the old ordinance
if you grant to.
i°ir. Hohlt : Say he puts in toirn houses, apartment houses or duplexes -
could he sell one du-olex?
N1r. Arndt : mat ' s the idea - he would sell off to individual owners.
Hr. Hohlt-: TLe common ;round --ould re-rain?
1-1r. Arndt: Yes - covenants ::Tould run with the lend.
11'4r. Shelton: Do you think 7da is would speed up development of new
areas in Stillwater?
1'°1r. Arndt : I thin',: it -Tould change the character of the development
you would c-et hirrn class development, People are interested in this
kind of approach - it gives them a chance to leave property in a
natural condition.
1"1-r. Condon: I think Steindor ff .-could have liked this better than :chat
he got.
i"Sr. Hohlt : If they break '',his piece of property up, if it ' s restricted,
nothing; can go on there.
'ir. Arndt : gather than selling land, as such, you buy shares in the
corpo-,.-ation. T?ie question is, do we -rant this type of ap:roach to
development in this area; .-Leat I ws.nt you to do is read this (Fridley
ordinance ) over and think about it - rr_ar'lk un t:ae copies if you have
yU'_.Sti OnS on 2. Certain part, etc . . . . . . . Jet down your thoughts On this
planned unit development and we will attem-pt to talk about it at the
next raceting.
Mr. Hohlt: 1t doesn ' t seem feasible to rte that anybody will coria in
here -a-ld buy property in the city, tear it down and build up. . . . the
objective of most of these is to ;et high density in a small area.
1-1r. Arndt : Jell, let ' s take it up next time.
Meeting adjourned at 9 :55 P. i4i®