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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2019-09-18 HPC MIN HERITAGE PRESERVATION COMMISSION MEETING September 18, 2019 7:00 P.M. Chairwoman Mino called the meeting to order at 7:02 p.m. Present: Chairman Mino, Commissioners Finwall, Krakowski, Larson, Thueson (arrived approximately 7:15), Walls, Council Representative Junker Absent: Commissioner Steinwall Staff: City Planner Wittman APPROVAL OF MINUTES Possible approval of minutes of August 21, 2019 Motion by Commissioner Walls, seconded by Commissioner Krakowski, to approve the minutes of the August 21, 2019 meeting with the correction of the word “worthy” in full paragraph 8 on page 2. All in favor, 5-0. OPEN FORUM There were no public comments. CONSENT AGENDA There were no items on the Consent Agenda. NEW BUSINESS Case No. 2019-21: Consideration of a Design Permit for a multi-tenant sign plan for the property located at 1400 (1570) Frontage Road West in the BPC District. Valley Ridge Holdings, LLC, property owner and Gordon Skamser Jr. and Francis Skamser Lewis, applicants. Ms. Wittman stated that in 1987 the City granted a variance allowing the property at 1570 Frontage Road West to have more than one business sign. In 2013 a multi-tenant sign plan was approved by the HPC and the City Council rescinded the original variance approval, clearing the title to the property for it to be subdivided to allow for the construction of the Dairy Queen building. Gordon Skamser Jr. has requested a Design Permit for the alteration of the existing multi-tenant sign plan to accommodate the installation of a new sign for Norman Quacks Chophouse. Ms. Wittman reviewed the proposed sign plan modifications. Staff has concern that the requested changes will make the plan difficult for staff to administer because there will be less clarity on how much individual signage is permitted for each elevation and zone. Also, there is concern that the proposed sign plan changes could increase visual clutter and set precedent. Francis Skamser Lewis, applicant, told the Commission they learned of the sign plan only last week. They realize some of the suggested revisions may make it more difficult for staff to enforce, and are open to discussion. Commissioner Larson asked the applicants to summarize their proposed changes. Ms. Skamser Lewis explained that their sign designer gave them the impression that the proposed Norman Quacks sign was in conformance with City ordinances. They later discovered there was a sign plan. The existing sign plan didn’t make sense because they are renting 5,000 square feet of space, 140 linear feet, compared with the average tenant who has 40 linear feet. They wanted to simplify the sign plan so that for every zone and elevation there is a maximum amount of square footage and it is up to the tenants to make Heritage Preservation Commission Meeting September 18, 2019 Page 2 of 4 sure their signs are in conformance with City code. Specifically, they removed 12a, the prohibition on signs with exposed neon/exposed bulbs, because they are not prohibited by City code, and 12e, the prohibition on exposed sign illumination or exposed sign cabinets or modules. They removed these prohibitions because they had seen those elements in existing signs that were on the property. They replaced the maximum sign square footage with a table that showed the maximum amount of square feet allowed per elevation and zone. Commissioner Larson asked how the suggested changes could be administered. Ms. Wittman said one of the largest challenges is that tenant spaces change frequently. If a particular zone is allotted 290 square feet, enforcing how that gets broken up by tenant is hard for staff to administer. The existing sign plan is one that staff uses as a model. The table clearly states what is allowed. Ms. Skamser Lewis said from a business standpoint it is very difficult to work in the old model because tenants consolidate and subdivide spaces. If you are the 5,000 square foot restaurant space, to have the same amount of signage available to you as the 50 square foot shop is inequitable; your signage is quite limited if you’re the last tenant to join your zone. Now that they understand the staff perspective, they would be open to a different plan that is reasonable and is more easily administered. Councilmember Junker noted that he opened up Anytime Fitness in 2006 with 4,600 square feet of space, then expanded gaining another 1,500 square feet but could not increase the signage. The Norman Quacks tenant space is essentially like an endcap space. Commissioner Larson suggested if the space is unique, can we address this space and still keep most of the existing sign plan in tact? Ms. Wittman replied she does not believe it is grounds for amending what looks to be complex sign language in the table - it has been easy for staff. If there is a desire to allot more signage for this tenant space then maybe there needs to be discussion of whether a new zone needs to be created. She explained that the current plan allows for three signs in that zone which runs from the right edge of one of the primary entrances to the mall, all the way to the corner, the theory being there would be a maximum of three tenant spaces. Norman Quack, the duck sign, is significantly larger than allowed and is on an architectural feature. Chairwoman Mino asked, if it were removed from the architectural feature, could it be accommodated elsewhere or is it over the square footage? Ms. Wittman replied it is over square footage for this zone. As proposed, a height variance would be required because the code does not allow the sign to go above the parapet or to obscure an architectural feature. The Planning Commission will consider the needed height variance. Ms. Skamser Lewis said their sign professional gave them 2-3 options for locations based on what he thought conformed to code. He interpreted the roofline or parapet being the top of the architectural feature rather than the line below. Another option is the space to the right, but it’s not visible from the road. They considered having the sign be smaller but visibility was a challenge. Commissioner Finwall commented that the sign is already up. It is hard for the HPC to approve a change if they don’t know if the variance will be approved by the Planning Commission. Commissioner Larson asked how did these signs get there without being reviewed by the City? Ms. Skamser Lewis said they hired a sign professional to create the signs and were under the impression that the signs complied with City code. Then they got a letter from the City notifying them of the issues. Ms. Wittman pointed out that to be compliant, they would be allowed to have 2 signs, one on each sign band façade area. The logo is the portion that is non-compliant. Chairwoman Mino said the restaurant’s signage in Forest Lake has the logo alongside the words and that could probably have been done here and not be out of compliance. Ms. Skamser Lewis replied the Forest Lake Norman Quacks location is much older. When they considered leasing the Stillwater space they had concerns that there has been a lot of turnover in that space over the Heritage Preservation Commission Meeting September 18, 2019 Page 3 of 4 years particularly with restaurants. They made a significant capital investment in signage to bring the space in line with their aesthetic and brand. They need visibility to the public. Mr. Skamser added that the restaurant in Forest Lake has been there 19 years and people still have no idea it is there. They did a bad job with signage in Forest Lake, and felt the architectural feature at this site gave the opportunity to express their individual business brand. Councilmember Junker noted everyone the City deals with would love to have as large a sign as possible. Unfortunately ordinances prohibit that. The restaurants there didn’t fail because of poor signage. It defaces the building to cover up the architectural feature. Commissioner Larson agreed that it’s a matter of being consistent. If every one of the tenants had a different sign it would be unattractive. To approve this sign would seem unfair to current tenants and does not follow the intent of the design guidelines. He would support a larger sign within the sign band, maybe consolidating the square footage area from both sides. Ms. Skamser Lewis noted that the zone and elevation includes Mongolian Barbecue, so technically Norman Quacks wouldn’t be able to have any signs. The Norman Quacks sign and the duck total 110 square feet. Ms. Wittman added that staff would interpret one of the Mongolian Barbecue signs to be illegally installed. Until early last week staff was unaware they had two signs. Chairwoman Mino agreed that the sign should be confined to the sign band area. Commissioner Larson said there is a lack of definition of the sign band. He would consider it being from the windows up. Ms. Skamser Lewis stated that they were confused by 12a and 12b because those are currently used by signs in the mall so they thought that was an antiquated gesture. It was articulated as exposed neon and theirs is not exposed. It is encased in a clear plastic cabinet. Ms. Wittman stated there is no prohibition in City code to exposed bulbs or neon, it was a condition of approval of the 1987 sign plan that was carried forward to the 2013 plan. Whether the clear plexiglass case makes it allowable or not is a great question. She suggested that staff work with the applicant on possibly amending the elevation plan for the building. She understands that the HPC is not favorable to covering up the architectural element in this location, that the HPC would like to see the logo of the duck incorporated into the business name, and is favorable to having a wider sign band in this area to accommodate the logo, and is more favorable to the duck dipping below the sign band but not going above the sign band. Commissioner Larson clarified he would support allowing the logo to go below the sign band in this one case but not rewriting it into the sign ordinance. It could be justified in this corner location. Commissioner Finwall said maybe an exception could be made for one tenant so when that tenant is no longer there it would not apply. Ms. Wittman agreed that the design permit approval could contain a condition that if the duck goes away the right to go below the sign band goes away. She would have to check this with the City Attorney. The only way to approve something for this applicant is to amend the sign plan because that is the only thing the HPC has control over. Councilmember Junker said the HPC could probably amend a certain zone. He has been in the mall 13 years and does not want to be inconsistent with other tenants. Ms. Skamser Lewis asked if the HPC would consider the sign to be exposed neon or not. Commissioner Larson replied if it’s not exposed and it’s cabineted, then it complies. Ms. Wittman asked if the HPC is OK with neon in the business district. The consensus was yes, it should all be covered, not exposed, with nothing broken or hazardous. Heritage Preservation Commission Meeting September 18, 2019 Page 4 of 4 Ms. Skamser Lewis asked if it is possible to do an interim sign plan for a particular tenant, applicable to that location so long as Norman Quacks is the tenant. Ms. Wittman replied there are no provisions in the zoning code for interim sign plans. Motion by Commissioner Larson, seconded by Commissioner Thueson, to table Case No. 2019-21, Design Permit for a multi-tenant sign plan for the property located at 1400 (1570) Frontage Road West, directing staff to work with the applicant on amendments that would not jeopardize staff’s ability to administer the plan but would allow for increased signage opportunities for this business given its uniqueness All in favor, 5-0. OTHER DISCUSSION ITEMS HPC/City Council Workshop Feedback and Enabling Ordinance Discussion Ms. Wittman thanked the Commissioners for attending a September 10 joint City Council and HPC meeting. She was pleased to hear that the Council is willing to consider not requiring an outside consultant to do designation studies. This will allow local resources to be better utilized. Staff has direction to draft a request for proposals for a consultant to assist with ordinance amendment. A Request for Proposals will be distributed and citizens will be asked for input. Councilmember Junker added that the Council passed a 1-year moratorium on demolition applications. FYI 2019 Preserve MN Conference September 11-13 Ms. Wittman, Chairwoman Mino and Commissioner Walls reported on the State Historic Preservation Conference held in St. Cloud. She reminded the Commission that Stillwater is hosting the 2020 Conference September 16-18. She asked for volunteers to sit on the planning committee which will meet October 7. Other Ms. Wittman added the State is seeking input, via a postcard survey, to update its historic preservation plan. Northern Bedrock Preservation Corps is clearing invasive species south of St. Croix Boat and Packet and the Bergstein Shoddy Mill and Warehouse. Staff met with the Met Council’s subcommittee which praised the City’s comprehensive plan. Commissioner Larson recapped an American Institute of Architects meeting held in Stillwater. Commissioner Thueson invited Commissioners to the Washington County Historical Society’s fall dinner meeting at the new South Greeley Street history center building. ADJOURNMENT Motion by Commissioner Walls, seconded by Commissioner Finwall to adjourn. All in favor, 5-0. The meeting was adjourned at 9:12 p.m. Respectfully Submitted, Julie Kink, Recording Secretary